Subject: P1394> PWG-C Meeting Minute 3/10 in JAPAN

From: Fumio Nagasaka <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 01:52:17 -0800

We had the steering committee meeting of PWG-C on 3/10 at Apple
Computer Japan. The following describes meeting minutes and
UN-approved draft charter of PWG-C.

          1394 PWG-C Steering Committee Meeting Minutes
         ==============================================
                          March 10, 1997  13:30 - 18:30
    at Apple Japan, Inc./ Hatudai office / Tokyo, JAPAN
    
                      written by Fumio Nagasaka (Epson)

list of participators:
Nobuhiko Shinoda ([email-masked]) - Canon Inc.
Shigeru Ueda ([email-masked])  - Canon Inc.
Tetsuro Kuwayama ([email-masked])   - Canon Inc.
Naohisa Suzuki ([email-masked])       - Canon Inc.
Nobuhiro Ohnishi ([email-masked]) - Canon Inc.
Atsushi Nakamura ([email-masked]) - Canon Inc.
Kazuhiro Hirata ([email-masked]) - Fuji Xerox Co., Ltd.
Yasushi Nagao ([email-masked])     - Microsoft Co., Ltd.
Keisuke Tsuchida ([email-masked])  - Microsoft Co., Ltd.
Toru Ueda ([email-masked])     - Sharp Corporation
Hiromitsu Kurokawa ([email-masked]) - Sony Corporation
Yukihiro Aoki ([email-masked])         - Sony Corporation
Mikio Watanabe ([email-masked])  - Fuji Photo Film Co., Ltd.
Fumihiro Fynazaki ([email-masked]) - Fuji Photo Film Co.,
Ltd.
Junji Iwane ([email-masked])        - Apple Japan, Inc.
Masanori Tanizaki ([email-masked]) - Seiko Epson Corporation
Fumio Nagasaka ([email-masked])    - Seiko Epson Corporation

Started at 13:08

1. Report from IETF

Fumio Nagasaka reported IETF PWG-1394 meeting which was held on 2/26
at Orlando, Florida with e-mail from Larry Stein. And Fumio introduced
status of "PWG-1394 Project".

  Chair: Greg LeClair - Epson
  Secretary: Larry Stein - Warp Nine Engineering
  Editor: Brian Batchelder - HP

I repeated e-mail from Larry Stein at the end of this e-mail.

Questions and Answers

(1) 
[Q] from Sony and Canon
US side of PWG seems to be mainly focusing on PC-based printing
architecture.

[A] from Epson
Yes. Actually very few company those have AV/C peripherals are
participating IETF PWG. All other companies are working on some
PC and OS platforms.

Sony:
The word "Consumer" does not sound good. There are many high end
audio video peripherals fitted with IEEE 1394 connector. Thus
not only consumer AV devices but also professional high end AV
devices will be used in peer to peer printing environment.

Epson:
If you say word "consumer" from quality points of view or marketing
points of view like as low end products or high end products. There
are various types of consumer PCs and printers in mass market. But
just we want to say is "Digital Camera or Digital VCR seems to be
more popular in home market", thus we are calling them as "consumer"
devices. All these device intended to be developed to be used in a home.

Others:
Thus we shall use the word "PC-based" and "non-PC based".......

(2)
[Q] from Canon
Still we are not clear about relationships of IETF PWG and PWG-1394
project.

[A] from Epson
The following shows a figure which was drawn by Larry at Albuquerque.

   IETF       NPA      DMTF
     |   PWG   /         |                1394 TA       1284.X
===============/======================    =======       =======
   /    |    | /    |    |         |           /          /
   /   IPP  JMP/  SENSE MIB/MIF    | 1394 PWG  /          /
   /           /                   ==========--/----------/
   /--1284.1---/                     |                X3T10  SBP-2
                                     | Transport ---- 1284.4
                                     | Data Link ---- 1283.3
                                     | Data Formats -- AV/CE
                                     | Management
                                     |

2. Scope for our focus and charter issue
2.1 Our focus
At first each company introduced what shall be their most biggest
interest in 1394 business.

* Sharp
  Peer to peer printing shall be the biggest concern. Our consumer
  device shall be connected to a printer directly and shall has
  print capability. For the transport layer issue we want to
  involve both consumer device and PC-based device. Is there any
  consumer device which was mentioned in RFC xxxx?

* SONY
  We need definition and standards for consumer device what we are
  calling now. Every commands set and data formats those to be used
  shall be same in PC devices and AV/C devices.
  
* Seiko Epson
  We are planning PC-based printer first. But we would like to keep
  inter-operability for AV/C and PC-based devices. Thus we need to
  define design standard for Power Management and PnP issue.

* FUJIFILM
  We are targeting direct printing from a digital camera to a printer.
  In addition to this points of view we would like to define same
  protocol(s) for PC and Digital camera.

* FUJI XEROX
  We wish to have minimum standards to accomplish direct printing.
  Thus we are interested in minimal transport and session layer, and
  we need minimum specification of data set and commands. Each company
  shall extend these specification by themselves. These architecture
  could be called as "protocol kernelize".
  
  Every consumer device shall operate PnP specification to avoid
  confusion when user connect AV/C device to a PC. So shall we need to
  define "LOGO" mark or trading standards?

* Microsoft
  PCs shall have world wide standard for printing architecture even if
  any consumer device had been connected, at least user shall be 
  notified safely. Thus peer to peer printing architecture should not
  cause any side effect to PCs. And any device which support peer to
  peer printing shall be connectable even for PC.

* Canon
  Printers shall be connectable and shall have capability for
negotiation
  for all IEEE 1394 devices. To do these, we need to classify printers
into
  several class according to their service coverage. And we shall
discuss
  about minimal specification for PC/non PC devices after we classified
them.
  If it is possible we can have common sets of commands and data
formats.
  
* Apple
  Printers shall be controlled from printer driver of Macintosh
environment.
  Apple thinks input portion of imaging protocol is also very important
as
  we are targeting multi media.
  If QuickTime Media Layer has input capability for 1394 imaging class,
user
  will wish to have printing capability also.
  We also would like to support still image in QuickTime IC.

2.2. Scope for Charter
  We had brain storm to write charter of PWG-C. We agreed that the PWG-C
  will be the proposal source for PWG-1394 project, at first. Actually
  we at eight companies were afraid of that how can we co-operate with
  PWG-1394 project. Thus we shall be a proposal source, to propose our
  opinion for PWG. In USA side, very few companies are going to have
  some consumer products for home market fitted with IEEE 1394. But we
  have many companies working for something for home market, such as
  digital cameras or VCRs. So our proposal will have some consumer
devices'
  points of view.

* Purpose (= Why): should contain these terms,
   + IEEE 1394 will enlarge printer market and will be a driving force
to
     get larger amount of users.
   + IEEE 1394 will provide new functionality for printing and possibly
     enhance printing applications.
   + In addition to conventional PC-based printing architecture, new
     non-PC based applications such as direct printing will require
     new standards and inter-operability for PC-based printing.
   + About guideline of implementation for particular system will be
     discussed in other chance. Also certification for standards will
     be discussed in another table.

* Scope (= How):
   + PWG-C as a proposal source for PWG will propose these points.
   	- A standard for the direct printing
   	- A standard for Plug & Play for AV/C device.
   	                 (AV/C = Sony calls 'non-PC based device')
    	- PWG-C will summarize various opinion of AV/C companies and then
    	  will suggest a proposal.
    	- PWG-C shall be opened and public organization for any person who
    	  want to propose or want to discuss something involved with 1394
    	  printing.
        - PWG-C has technical scope for printing standards shown below.
            - to discuss upper layer than transaction layer which was
              described in IEEE 1394-1995.

     * Goal & Milestone (= What):
        * 3/24    Approved Charter by PWG-C
        * 4/2     Announcement to IETF PWG-1394 project
        * 4/14    Announcement to 1394TA
        * 6/24    Preliminary draft
        * 9/E     Reviced preliminary draft
        * 12/E    Final draft 1.0

Fumio Nagasaka shall reports Greg LeClair, Larry Stein and Brian
Batchelder
about meeting for PWG-C. To make it easier for PWG and PWG-C to co-work
in
Japan and USA, We at PWG-C would like to ask PWG-1394 project these
matters shown below.
  (1) PWG-C requests PWG to have some 1394 meetings in Japan in 1997.
  (2) PWG-C requests PWG-1394 Project to send one of editors' position
      from PWG-C steering committee.

3.2 Organization and operation

Larry Stein wrote:
> In Japan, a group referring to itself as "PWG-J" has formed.  It is made up
> of a bunch of companies, including Seiko-Epson, Canon and Sony.  They are
> working on solving the same problem we are.  They seem to be a little more
> focused on the consumer-device (e.g. camera) to printer connection.  We
> talked at length about coordinating our efforts.  It is absolutely critical
> to our success.  Some of the options we discussed were:
> 1)  periodic joint meetings
> 2)  coordination through the chairmen
> 3)  cross-membership on the e-mail reflectors
> 4)  just "making them do it our way" (resoundingly vetoed)
> 5)  working on the common problems first, to help drive inter-operability at
> the lowest levels

As I reported before we decided to change name from "PWG-J" to
"PWG-C" to show our stand points are focusing in the inter-operability
of consumer devices and PC-oriented devices, and to show the "PWG-C" is
opened not only for Japanese but also world wide. 

We had voted rename issue on 3/3 at general meeting of PWG-J, and we
agreed
with new name "PWG-C". On 3/10 we at steering committee of PWG-C
discussed
some idea of operation rules for PWG-C. The following rule will be
discussed
on 3/24 at general meeting of PWG-C.

  * Conditions for participation in PWG-C
  	+ The steering committee of PWG-C will provide general announcement
  	  for PWG-C in Web server served by Epson. The general announcement
  	  shall contain documents to show how to join in PWG-C, and
  	  reflector e-mail address. Each company should register only one
  	  person who is responsible for PWG-C issue.
  	+ Any company which would like to join us shall send e-mail to Chair
  	  man and co-chair man of PWG-C.
        + Each company has single number of vote.
        + Each company shall send e-mail to chair man and co-chair man
to
          join each meeting.
  * Conditions to terminate participation in PWG-C
  	+ every company who wish to quit participating PWG-C
  	  will be allowable.
  * How to open information
	+ Epson will provide Web server
	  Meeting minutes will be opened in the Web pages
  * How to announce for meeting schedule
	+ use mailing reflector

3.3.  Bylaws

  As proposal source for IETF PWG - 1394 project and 1394 TA, we confirm
  same agreement for bylaws of 1394 TA and IETF. The succession of
bylaws
  shall be discussed following PWG-C meeting after we reviewed bylaws of
  upper site of meeting group.

4. Next meeting

  At next steering committee meeting, we would like to focus some
  technical points of view. The schedule of next steering committee
meeting
  is shown bellow.

Date/Time:  3/17 from 11:00 - 
Place:      Canon Inc. Shinkawasaki branch, Japan
Agenda:
  (1) Current problems and objectives (From each companies)
  (2) Technical Issue (From each companies)
        a) Minimum functions
        b) Classification of devices
        c) Succession abilities from the printer drivers point
           Can we cover conventional driver architecture within a
           protocol or within single printer class.
        d) Implementation
        e) Overall architecture
        f) Necessity of protocols other than printing functions
        g) Range  of the protocol stack
  (3) Procedures of Discussion
        Do we need Sub-working groups for AV/C oriented printers

-------------------
Subject: 
         P1394> Minutes from Orlando meeting
   Date: 
         Mon, 03 Mar 1997 16:18:02 -0800
  From: 
         Larry Stein <[email-masked]>
     To: 
         [email-masked]

These minutes and the revised charter are available on the PWG
ftp site "ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/p1394"
I've posted them as a Word 6 doc and as a PDF file.
-Larry
******************************************************************

1394 PWG Meeting
Feb. 26, 1997
Orlando, Florida

Mailing lists: 
Web Page:               http://www.pwg.org/p1394
General Discussion:             [email-masked]
To Subscribe:           [email-masked] 
Archive:                        ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/p1394

Since this meeting started without an official Secretary these minutes
were
compiled from notes by Don Wright, Brian Batchelder and Larry Stein.

Larry Stein - Warp Nine Engineering
Alan Bream - HP Roseville
Brian Batchelder- HP Vancouver
Danny Mitchell - TI
Ron Norton - Printronix
Greg LeClair - Epson
Lee Farrell - Canon
Don Wright - Lexmark
Ozay Oktay- Canon
Randy Turner - Sharp

Started at 8:45

Discussion on agenda topics

1)  What kind of organization is this?
ｷ coordination
ｷ SDO affiliation
2)  Officers
3)  Charter

Organization
ｷ Are we affiliated with any SDOs (Standards Development Organizations)?
ｷ How do we coordinate between the US side and the Japan side?
ｷ Let Japan side focus on camera-to-printer payload?
ｷ Let US side deal with DLC/transport part?
ｷ Everyone working on this effort needs to post their proposals to the
ftp
server
How do we coordinate with other groups?
1394TA
TA sponsored groups must be chaired by a Steering team member and
contain
only TA members.  We want to be more open, so we won稚 be an official TA
sponsored group.  We will coordinate our efforts with the TA, through
their
architectural committee.
Japan
In Japan, a group referring to itself as "PWG-J" has formed.  It is made
up
of a bunch of companies, including Seiko-Epson, Canon and Sony.  They
are
working on solving the same problem we are.  They seem to be a little
more
focused on the consumer-device (e.g. camera) to printer connection.  We
talked at length about coordinating our efforts.  It is absolutely
critical
to our success.  Some of the options we discussed were:
1)  periodic joint meetings
2)  coordination through the chairmen
3)  cross-membership on the e-mail reflectors
4)  just "making them do it our way" (resoundingly vetoed)
5)  working on the common problems first, to help drive interoperability
at
the lowest levels

Charter
We decided that we were trying to avoid the adoption of a multiplicity
of
printing models over 1394.  We all remember too painfully how difficult
it
was to support printing when each printer did everything differently,
and
all apps were DOS apps and they required their own drivers.  In 1394,
without standards, we run the risk of again having all of the printers
do
everything differently.  Since all 1394 devices can speak directly to
every
other 1394 device, we will have to convince every device to support our
unique model of printing.  Not an easy task, even for the biggest player
in
the printing industry.
There was a definite issue of how much we specify?  We decided that we
should specify as little as possible.  We joked that we "wanted to avoid
being creative if at all possible."  We simply meant that we want to
reference existing standards and specifications wherever possible.  Only
where absolutely necessary will we invent anything new.
We are also concerned about the scope of the problem that we are trying
to
solve.  One of our first tasks is to work on defining our scope and
keeping
it as small as possible.  We need to move quickly, and a tight scope
will
enable us to do so.

ｷ Reviewed charter developed at the Albuquerque meeting
Please see "CHARTER.PDF" or "CHARTER.DOC" on ftp site for final draft of
working charter.
ｷ Need to add to the charter a statement about producing a 1394 printing
architectural model document
ｷ How do we deal with the "urgency" of the consumer oriented companies
versus the normal standards process?
ｷ Should we work on the high level model, get that done and then attack
the
individual pieces?
ｷ Work to do:
ｷ CSR definitions
ｷ Image formats/PDL formats
ｷ Plug and Play
ｷ Config ROM contents

Charter Scope:
The 1394 Printer Working Group will be the focal point for the
development
and coordination of a comprehensive printing solution for the IEEE
Std.1394-1995 interfaces.

This project will produce a specification to define a mechanism for
printing on IEEE Std.1394-1995 compliant links.  This specification will
include existing standards or specification and any new specifications
as
necessary.

Areas of review include:
Job Submission
ｷ push
ｷ pull
ｷ remote initiation
Transport and Link protocols
Data Formats
Device Management
Service Discovery
ｷ Config ROM 
ｷ Plug 創 Play
ｷ Control and Status Registers (CSR)
The 1394 Printer Working Group is chartered by the PWG and coordinates
with
the 1394 TA and is open to anyone interested in contributing to the
project.  The 1394 PWG will seek the participation of other industry
groups
and key representatives of the computer and consumer electronics
industry.

----------
By consensus, the group elected the following officers:

Chair: Greg LeClair - Epson
Secretary: Larry Stein - Warp Nine Engineering
Editor: Brian Batchelder - HP

The group decided to seek status as a study group with the MSC.

This has since been requested of the IEEE MSC chair and approval has
been
received.  We are now a study group sponsored by the IEEE MSC.  We have
6
months in order do decide whether or not to seek status as an IEEE
working
group.

In order to better understand how printing on 1394 will be used, a set
of
scenarios should be developed.

Examples scenarios:

1)  PC to a Printer
2)  Source to a Printer with a PC on the link as well
3)  Source to a Printer without a PC on the link
4)  Multiple printers and/or multiple sources
5)  #4 plus more than 1 PC
6)  Two or more 1394 busses interconnected by bridges

Concepts ---
1)  What does 1394 printing mean?  
2)  Does it include printing a video stream being sent across the 1394
bus?  
3)  What initiates the print?  
4)  Is there a print button on the printer than captures a frame out of
the
stream and print it?  
5)  Must the PC or other Source do something special to cause printing
to
occur?  

Should we limit the scope to:

1)  Source initiated print operation - data sent from PC (in a PDL
format)
or Camera (image)?
ｷ data pushed from source to printer
ｷ data pulled by printer from source
2)  Sink initiated print operation?
ｷ push
ｷ pull
3) Source/Sink Crossbar
        In general, we want to connect any sink to any source on a 1394
link.
4) The architecture consists of :
        Service Discovery
ｷ Who I am 
ｷ What I can support
        Job Management
ｷ Connect source to sink
        Job Submission
ｷ Source Initiated
ｷ Sink Initiated
        Transport Type
ｷ Push
ｷ Pull
        Transport Mode
ｷ Isochronous
ｷ Asynchronous
ｷ Multicast

Is the printing service required to simultaneously print to multiple
devices (1 to many)?

How does service discovery work?  Is it really device discovery?
ｷ LDAP
ｷ Srv Loc
ｷ Something else
ｷ How does it interoperate with PnP?
ｷ What are "my" capabilities?

Next Meeting:
        April 2, 1997
        Austin, Texas
        Sponsored by Dazzle

Meeting notice will be posted on this reflector.

-Larry Stein
Secretary
---------------------
-- Fumio Nagasaka --
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